In this episode of What’s The Buzz? HiveRisk founder Kate Burt is joined by Natalie Foster, founder of Inspire Legal Group.
They dive into her story so far, the realities of running an SRA regulated practice and what the future holds both in terms of threats and opportunities.
Transcript:
Kate Burt: And we’re live on LinkedIn. So, hello and welcome everyone to this special edition of What’s the Buzz? We’re live on LinkedIn today, and I am joined by the lovely Natalie Foster, founder and CEO of Inspire Legal Group. Now, Natalie and I have known each other for many years, I think going back to like 2021.
Now before Hive Risk was a twinkle in my eye at that time, I hadn’t actually put the brand out there at that time. Natalie Inspire Legal didn’t exist in this form at that time. And really from our time knowing each other, we’ve both been on huge growth stories and there’s highs and lows in that in that period.
One thing I can say, Natalie, that every time I’ve spoken to you, whether that’s the you know, the high points or the challenges on both both sides, I have never left a conversation with you without being moved, energized, challenged. And I think you’re an absolute force, Natalie, and it I’m so proud to have you on this Live LinkedIn live.
Natalie Foster: Thank you. That’s so nice. Thank you. I feel exactly the same. Yeah, I cannot believe that we’ve known each other that many years now. I think it’s a bit like dog years, isn’t it? It feels like it feels so much longer, actually. But I think that’s more about…
Why I feel like I have known you such a long time, and obviously, know, Justine as well, and some of your HiveRisk team, is because of what we have managed to cram into such a small period of time. Like, I feel like I’ve lived 20 years in five. Good and bad, really.
Well, nothing bad because everything that’s happened has brought us to this situation. Which is again, you always think don’t you, I’m gonna get to there, I just wanna get to there and then I’ll be happy. I wanna get to there and then I’ll be happy. And then when you get there you realise, this is just the start, let’s go there, let’s go there. And it’s like, at what point, and that is the point of an entrepreneur is, there is no, it’s not about not being content.
Or wanting more, it’s the temptation to improve and shift and change and learn. It’s just, too much to not do.
Kate Burt: And it’s that realization, and it’s such a liberating realization when it comes that it’s not about the destination, it’s about the journey and it’s about the growth. And then with that mindset, you realize that there’s nothing lost. So what’s perceived in the moment as a disaster, you are growing, you are growing wiser, you wear in those stripes, you wear those scars, and then you in the next step of the journey, you’re
You are a different person, a new person and a stronger person in it. I felt that in my own journey. I’ve seen the growth in your your the the strength of your character and your resilience, Natalie. Absolutely incredible. So for those who don’t know you, Natalie, what’s the story? What’s the background? Who is Natalie Foster?
Natalie Foster: Yeah. It’s very big question, it? Because obviously there are lots of hats and lots of versions. First and foremost, it’s a bit of a cliché, I am a mum of two amazing children. My daughter is currently going through her big shift, which is GCSEs.
That’s a really emotional thing for a parent to see and I didn’t quite realise that your kid leaving school is almost as heartbreaking as your kid starting school. So the feeling that you get dropping them off on the first day, I’m almost now really dreading dropping her off on the last day because in a way there’s an element of redundancy about my relationship with her now because she will be 16 and no longer needs me for the school run.
Sounds small but it really isn’t. And then I have a 13 year old son and two beautiful stepchildren. So home life, great. That is what I’m all about when I’m not at work really. In terms of the journey getting to this point, it’s been messy. It’s been at times unplanned.
There’s been, I don’t mind saying it, there’s been a lot of blagging, there’s been a lot of begging, there’s been a lot of trying, there’s been a lot of learning. And I’m not ashamed to say any of those things because I think a lot of people that have achieved certain things, by all means there are a great many people that have achieved a lot more than I have, certainly, but they don’t talk about those moments of… Not so much despair but where they think really they might lose a bit of faith. They maybe have people that they depended on or you felt were bought in and that did not pan out for whatever reason.
So you’ve got to kind of pick things back up, self doubt. There’s been a lot of twists and turns but where things began were that you know initially I left School went to sixth form and studied A level law and completely 100 % flunked it. Like I was not interested in…
I didn’t value education as much as I should have done at that time. It just wasn’t my place. It just wasn’t where my mind was at and where my focus was at, which is why I imagine my daughter’s going through quite a rough time at the moment because we’re tutor revision, da da da da, because I don’t want her to have to do it later on in life.
But what it did teach me, I remember getting my A-level results and feeling this huge wave of shame about these results. So I gave off an air of, don’t care, whatever, I’m not bothered, but too interested in other things, friends, parties, whatever. But I remember that moment and I can still feel that wave of shame. didn’t want anyone to ask me what I’d got.
I didn’t want to talk about it, it was horrific and I felt very embarrassed about it. And that was the point at which I thought, yeah, there’s regret here. I should have done more because I knew I’m capable of doing more. I couldn’t go to uni. It wasn’t something that I could do through the UCAS or anything like that at that time. So I didn’t. Instead of trying to retake and do it again, I bottled it and I decided to work in a hair salon, I worked in retail, I did a number of jobs that gave me really good skills with people and things like, you know, point of sale training, I worked for Arcadia, I worked for some very big reputable companies.
I ended up working as a banker in Barclays Bank because I very sales focused and I was very results focused and I think it was the fear of that feeling of shame coming back that was like, right, we’re not going to go down that route, but we’re going to go down this route and we’re going to smash this route. This is what we need to do. And as a result of that, I ended up working in business banking. Retail in the shop and retail in the bank at that time really sat very close to each other. They were selling a product. It was really salesy. was before the 2009 drama. very, very target focused it had to calm down and be more about client care on the face of it after that.
But I was there for that window of really intense sales. I really enjoyed it. I was really good at it. I ended up being fourth in the UK for sales overall, and I was in the most sparsely populated area in North Yorkshire. So I had to fly about quite a lot to get those numbers in.
Kate Burt: Wow.
Natalie Foster: I was in Barclays Bank for think it was seven, eight years. I had both my children. But there was this niggle there. And this niggle was always, you should have gone to uni. You should have got an education. You should have done your law degree. You wanted to be a lawyer. Why didn’t you get a law degree? And it was there and I…
Kate Burt: Even after all those accolades? So that, you know, to get to that point and to have that kind of success in a career, you still felt that wasn’t enough because of it you were still carrying that shame from the A level results.
Natalie Foster: That was an internal need that was mine and mine only, all the other stuff was external. You know, it’s the same now, isn’t it? You go, you know, we love awards, we feel, you know, humble to a degree when we’re named or shortlisted and we go and we get an award and we get a trophy and we get even an article being published, etc. It’s all wonderful, but it’s very external validation. And internal validation is something that’s very different and it’s not always measured in the same, in fact, often it isn’t measured in the same way.
So for me, it was kind of me telling me off that you could have done this. And it wasn’t an overwhelming life. Yeah, very much. Yeah, very much. But I was so interested in working in business banking as well. Then you started dealing with a of company formation documents, lending submissions. So you’re dealing with contractual, and entity, and source of funds, and AML, and KYC.
Kate Burt: Like unfinished business, do you feel feel like there was unfinished business? Yeah.
Natalie Foster: All of which I became really into and I understood it and I enjoyed it and it was forensic and was meaty. And then it was very strange, it was like I got up one day and I just went to my mum and I said, look, it’s very difficult for me to do anything other than be a parent and do this part-time role, because I was part-time at that time. But Coventry University are opening a campus in Scarborough and they’re doing a law degree.
and it’s down the road and I’m going to apply and if I do do you think we could work out a childcare start situation to a degree and my mum came round to my house the next day with a laptop and she was like this is for you I hope you’ve phoned them and I was like and I did actually yeah but I don’t really know what UCAS means and I don’t really understand this but I got they looked at my CV and I got in on points and whatnot
and it was the first cohort that come to university campus. They were desperate for students, that’s why I got in. They were absolutely desperate. There were about six people in my class, they needed the student finance and thank God that they did. And it was a BA in law and practice, it wasn’t an LLB. So again, at that time I didn’t understand the differentiation in terms of routes to qualification. I just wanted to study the subject and I remember my first lecture and the campus hadn’t been built.
Kate Burt: No, not really come on.
Natalie Foster: And this dynamite lecturer, she was super cool. She was very atypical, of dot mart in boots, nose ring, university lecturer, very, very clever, called Maddie. And she blew my mind with the first lesson for contract law. And I just fell in love with it because it was almost like it was so black and white. there was, you know, which I know you can argue that.
as you do in litigation as to whether it’s black and white or, you know, black and…
Kate Burt: Did it did it feature a snail in the ginger beer, Natalie?
Natalie Foster: It sure did. Well that was more of a talk really wasn’t it, but that came down the line but yeah it absolutely did. Yeah we had the snail and the ginger beer.
Kate Burt: And and the advertising puff.
Natalie Foster: Advertising puff, yeah, and the paint on the bridge, did the paint flaking off and the warranty, yeah, it was always, it was really, really cool. But I just loved this, like it was the ability to overcome an injustice with something and the power that somebody that’s well informed could hold to help people like that. There was something wonderful about that. And I remember coming out of my first lecture and sitting, this sounds really romantic, but this is exactly, exactly what happened. Came out of the spa in Scarborough, which is where these were hosted, freezing cold, definitely wasn’t legal to have lectures in that building, it was so cold. But I went up to the top of the, the cliffs at Scarborough, is the top of the spa, sat on the bench, overlooking the coast, and I thought, I’m gonna do this. It’s gonna be really hard. I don’t know how to switch my laptop on.
I don’t know what the, but I’m gonna do this. And I felt really emotional about it, like it had gone 360. It’s like the last 18 years of me feeling not so much inadequate, but like, you silly buggy, you should have done this, you should have done this. It was all like, right, get old a bit, you know?
Kate Burt: Did you bring a different mind? And yeah, no, you I know I almost know the answer to this, but if you’d have gone straight on, redone it, gone straight into doing your going to uni straight away without that life experience, without that feeling of of what it really meant, I think you would have been a different student in that classroom, even it was the same story.
And I don’t think I’d have owned a business either. I think I would have been risk averse. I think I’d have been conditioned to a particular path. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but I think that I would have been institutionalized to believe that the only way forward within this would have been, know, cranny, junior, associate, and go for that. And there’s nothing wrong with that whatsoever, because ultimately…
Kate Burt: Just to add in there, Natalie, that’s how I did come into it. That’s exactly how I did. So I know you would have been conditioned and it would have to taken you a long longer time to get into business because it I had to I had to well to sort of blow my life up to get on the right the right track. But that’s the intersection.
Natalie Foster: I know. I know. Diversify. But that’s when we met. That is when we met because when we… it literally you were just finished working as, if I’m not mistaken, you were in litigation and you…
Kate Burt: Yep. Testing your knowledge now, Natalie on my history. Go on. I was in litigation, yes.
Natalie Foster: They get your litigation. You would then, if I’m not mistaken, working in houses, had a compliance. And then you decided it was literally that year where you were like, think I might set something up myself. Think I might get my sister to help me.
I think I might do that. And I remember being sat out in a cafe in Piccadilly, do remember? Because I put my laptop on the side, little me from Scarborough, and you were like, don’t leave your laptop there.
Kate Burt: Right. Yes.
Natalie Foster: And I said, what do mean? I’m just going to… Don’t leave your laptop there it’s Piccadilly and Manchester. Take your laptop with you. Yeah, I was like that. da da. just absolutely…
Kate Burt: Yeah. Yeah, blink and it’s gone. but interesting Natalie, you met that intersection is a very, very powerful time in my life. In fact, you know, because everything was had met so I’d left this really safe, so it’s turning into an interview with me now, but we’ll just roll with it. So on the ex the reverse of your story, I’d followed A levels degree, stable career.
Natalie Foster: I love it, I love it.
Kate Burt: You know, associate, junior associate, you know, really, really awesome position in a top fifty law firm. And I was like, nah, I’m gonna do something else. In fact, so yes.
Natalie Foster: Yeah. That’s an external measure again though, isn’t it? It’s an external measure of what… And again, I’m not removing the credibility of that at all. There’s reasons that there are top 50 law firms, there are top 100 law firms, you know, because they’ve attained such an incredible amount and arguably what we’re trying to start or have started, the goal is, my goodness, can you imagine? there’s credibility there, but… it doesn’t, none of the external stuff can replace what you feel you want to take off. Yeah, yeah.
Kate Burt: What’s calling inside? So from my perspective, what was calling from me was the create creativity, the entrepreneurial path, the being the master of my own destiny, destiny, the just something that’s pulling and like something that was pulling you to take a certain route, something was pulling me to take that certain route. And just it was that messy middle where we met, where where I’d h high hadn’t launched. I’d three under three.
Natalie Foster: Yeah. Yeah, it was.
Kate Burt: ‘Cause you know, of course you you hand your notice in and you find out you’re having twins. Awesome. so it it and that was exactly at that intersection where we met Natalie, which was was was quite it was a very sort of a very interesting time for both of us in different ways.
Natalie Foster: It was turbulent. It was turbulent. Again, you know, there were, you know, as always in business and in life, you form relationships and some things that I like to say quite often because it justifies why it’s okay to let certain relationships go and wish people well and know that they’re not for you in terms of moving forward and others are at.
People that you should hold dear and move forward with. And there were some relationships formed at that time when I was super enthusiastic and it was all about give, give, give, give and being a little bit submissive and yeah, I’ll do that for free. Yeah, I’ll do that. Yeah, I’ll speak to you at seven o’clock. Yeah, I’ll do that. And then you realize, hang on a minute. This is about boundaries and this isn’t a transaction. This is one way and I’m really working.
Kate Burt: Where’s my boundaries? Where’s my boundaries?
Natalie Foster: And then, but that’s really healthy, because that’s a good lesson. Then you realise someone’s there for a page of your book, a paragraph, a chapter, and then it’s okay to go. That’s completed now, that relationship. So, and you move forward.
Kate Burt: The same Natalie, people are there for a reason or a season or something. And so some people you meet and they’re a a lesson for you that everything’s a gift, I see it, as everything’s a gift. Even the most, you know, awful situation, there’s a message in there and a challenge in there for you to overcome, whether it’s setting boundaries. And I’m talking about myself as much as your own journey there, Natalie, is that it’s…
Natalie Foster: Yeah. Yeah. See you later.
Kate Burt: That challenge or that challenger who you might think someone that really like rubs you up the wrong way, there if you’re feeling that with someone, there’s something there, there’s a sacred contract there or something. I I get very philosophical about these things, but they’re the trigger.
Natalie Foster: It’s true there’s a trigger yeah why does that person the weird thing is it’s usually the people that irritate me the most are quite like me like it’s true if I I often say my god if I you know when you leave a voicemail for someone and you’re like shit that’s eight minutes long I’m gonna I’m gonna send it.
Kate Burt: Who? Got a few friends like that.
Natalie Foster: I’m going to send it but then I’m going to say sorry which is what I do often with my team. I’m like I’m really sorry it’s Monday morning and I’ve sent you and they’re just eyeball rolling me now they’re like I’ll get to that at lunchtime you know.
Kate Burt: Do you know my trick on that one with WhatsApp? Because I have a few friends like you, Kirsty Pappin, if you’re watching.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, I’ve had her voice notes as well.
Kate Burt: So what I do sometimes sometimes I love to hear often I love to hear Kirsty’s voice, but sometimes I will hit the transcribe button on WhatsApp and just get the gist of it. But yeah.
Natalie Foster: Definitely. Or at times two speed on the voice note if you’ve had enough coffee is alright. But yeah, we did meet at a crossroads absolutely and by which point obviously I had been, I’d managed to work in a firm and had to then unfortunately whistle blow my then partner.
Which meant the firm that I’d just recently become partner in, which was an ABS because I’m not a solicitor, was then on its way downhill and on its way out. And there was no avoidance. I mean, that was a heartbreaking thing, really, because I was faced with two choices, the first, which is absolutely not gonna happen, although it’s a very controversial subject.
Kate Burt: So far.
Natalie Foster: It does happen every day. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that because the prospect of me dealing with that is so mammoth and I’m so comfortable with my car and my salary and everything else. It’s like ignorance, you know? Yeah, but we know, you know, it’s complicit. There’s just absolutely no way that that would happen. So then the alternative is let’s tackle this on and blow this open. And a lot of people, even to this day, worked.
Kate Burt: It does happen. It does happen. Yeah. Yeah.
Natalie Foster: With us at that time still believe because they were very comfortable in their place and they’d worked in that firm for a number of years and they still believed that I had some, you know, a master plan or something but whistle-blowing is a very difficult thing and there should be master plan. There’s no winners, shoot the messenger, no. But we have no choice, we have no choice.
Kate Burt: There’s no winners is there.
Natalie Foster: And that’s regulation, that’s regulation. So we move on from that and it’s locked down, 2020. It’s a Monday night and Boris Johnson says, nobody go out please. And then that was the same week that I had a deed of retirement to come out of said practice and was working with the SRA with that particular situation as a witness.
And I had clients calling me and lawyers calling me going, where are you? What’s going on? And I thought with the support of two very good friends, two very well seasoned, amazing litigators who remained very good friends of mine, who were my bosses, when I came into the law as an assistant, when I was doing my course, they said, you need two things. You need insurance and you need a license. Crack on.
And it was just unfathomable that that was never on the cards for me to do that on my own. Obviously I can’t do it on my own. You have to have a particular set up. And finding the right board was a challenge. Finding the right partner was a challenge. And I’ve often, I’ve just spoken about this actually. was messaging Helen Pemley who was obviously doing her podcast amazing. And I said to her, one of the…
A great topic to discuss is like, how is a business partnership like a marriage? Is it as important as a marriage? You choose, financially you’re locked in, you have to trust, you have to have them as a confidant, it’s what’s and all.
Kate Burt: Yeah. Probably see them more than your own spouse.
Natalie Foster: You have to, and it’s a journey. Do we do enough due diligence actually on people as people? Not so much the DBSs and the credit checks and all that jazz, but do we do enough due diligence on your personality before you lock in with someone in business? And the answer to that is absolutely a big fat no. And why? Well, because it takes years to actually truly know someone. So the very nature of going into business with anyone.
It’s either based on their history or it’s the degree of I’m going to go with my gut and…
Kate Burt: Do you know what it’s like, Natalie? It’s like married at first sight with none of the psychometric tests. It’s it’s like married at first sight without the experts to like set it up. It’s just like, well, let’s see if this works. and I’ve I’ve had a kissed a few frogs as well in my career history, and you learn discernment. You learn discernment and you learn and you s and you check you can spot the red flags faster. But I don’t think it
Natalie Foster: It’s science! It really is! Yeah, yeah.
Kate Burt:It’s never it’s never like with a marriage as well, you never know if it’s not gonna work out.
Natalie Foster: Faith, that’s the definition of faith, isn’t it? It’s the belief in something, the results of which are yet to come. Like, you don’t know. That’s what faith is. And everybody who sets up a business must have faith, complete faith. Not blind faith, but complete faith that they are going to get to where they need to get to. But it has to be on both sides. You can’t have an imbalance as to where the…
Where the work is coming from. think that’s what’s wonderful about what you’ve got with High Risk is every single one of your teams seem to have utter brand belief. It’s amazing. It’s very rare.
Kate Burt: Yes, yes, exactly. I think also be because like the marriage situation, and it’s not a prenup quite, but it having shareholders’ agreements is really important at the at the front end and knowing, okay, if this all goes wrong, what’s our exit strategy that doesn’t pull us through the courts? Like what is always having, this is just from my years of wisdom, is where’s the ejector seat?
Natalie Foster: Ciao.
Kate Burt: Or but where’s the ejector button if any of us needs it? And without judgment and getting into a fight about it, at any point we’re all humans with human free will. If you need to, if I need to, if anyone needs to get out of this situation, what button do we press that’s the least the path of least resistance to what do you call it, conscious uncoupling or something?
Natalie Foster: Yeah. Yeah. Just bring us back over. If it’s so possible, bring us back to the point before the contract, you know, occurred and that’s always, you know, give everybody what they set up with and we move forward. But yeah, I mean, but you can’t again, like, like a marriage, I keep saying it, you can’t start off in that mindset. I’ve got, very fortunate. We did just go through a merge with Han Law.
Kate Burt: Yes, congratulations on that.
Natalie Foster: Hannah, yeah, thank you. That was last October. Hannah Strawbridge is obviously an employment solicitor. She has run her own non-regulated firm for a number of years. Prior to that, she’s done in-house at Manchester. She’s done, she’s worked in a great many different ways and built up a lot of clientele and she has…
built a fantastic name within her sector. The reasons, and she won’t mind me saying this, but the reasons that we came together were she didn’t want to do the bit that I do, but she knew she had to as a business owner. But she’s really passionate about the industry and the application of law and helping people and being very client-centered.
And as the head of department, she can maximise that as long as the back office function is taken away. Mine, obviously I’ve done property for many years and mine was very much going back to the roots of AML, KYC operations practice stuff. So it worked, it seemed and I keep waiting for the, you know, when you have a bump in the road or you have a gripe or you know, your hormones kicking or you say something that’s a bit short, we all have it, it all happens.
And I keep waiting for her to go, you know what? She never does, she’s like that. I’m here, I’m here for the long road. This is it, we are in this. We’ve got a plan, we’ve got obviously, we’ve got our short term plan, but the long term plan involves our key partner in America as well, which has got a very exciting career in litigation and he truly believes in what we’re doing and it’s lovely to share.
Kate Burt: Yeah.
Natalie Foster: The enthusiasm and the journey with somebody who’s in it for the long is great.
Kate Burt: And that you can that can be that sounding board and not get spooked.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, 100%. Yeah, nothing much rattles her. She’s pretty unrattleable, to be honest. I’ve never met anyone like her.
Kate Burt: Well, so I’ve got my Justine, you know, I’m gonna be biased with my Justine, who’s our she’s my big sister, she’s our managing director as well. And she I I always sort of brag about that my integrator to to my visionary was ready for me, waiting before I was born. so at high risk we’re very lucky to have that sort of that that strength in that partnership at the top. and that, you know, if you can find your Justine, if you can find your Hannah.
Natalie Foster: That’s it. Yeah.
Kate Burt: Then you’re in a very strong position in business.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, that’s a Johnny, that’s a Johnny-esque statement, we love that.
Kate Burt: The EOS, yeah. If no one knows what we’re talking about, Google EOS, look at the book Traction, you must read it if you’re in business. You’ve got to read it, yeah.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, it’s great. Absolutely. So yeah, here we are then. we’re in year six in August and I’m celebrating my daughter’s birthday next week. I’m celebrating my son’s this week and I’m thinking, do you know what? I’m going to have a birthday party for my business. Never done that before. We should have done it in year five, but I was a bit busy. know, like you’re always a bit busy. But I’m saying like we all deserve it. We all deserve it.
Kate Burt: I love that. I love that.
So well they’re the grunt years, aren’t they? Those early years, year two, three, four. they’re the grunt years. And so for anyone who doesn’t know Natalie, what what is it that ILG does? What’s your work air areas of law? What what who do you service? And what’s your business all about?
Natalie Foster: Ugh. So this is an interesting question and I’m going to give you the long answer but I’ll try and keep it not boring. So you start off being all things to all people, don’t you? So high street practice, a consultant in every area, let’s crack on website page for every discipline. And we’ve completely removed that approach now. We’ve actually got our website being redone.
Which is great by the lovely Liam Mitchell, so he’s helping. Yeah, absolutely, so he’s doing really great. He’s doing really great helping us. We’ve got employment, employment, corporate, B2B, B2C. It’s very much Hannah’s baby. She does a great job really retaining those relationships, repeat business.
Kate Burt: Shout out to Liam.
Natalie Foster: Essentially is the in-house out-house lawyer for a lot of corporates which is fabulous and she has her team who support her in the delivery of that work. think the thing is with Hannah is it’s all about speed and efficiency and her pace is unlike anything I’ve ever known and we have to you know I’m sat here now in HQ and we’ve got client services team and it’s split into the two disciplines or main disciplines and the people that work on employment, know they are actually pressing refresh button, waiting for an email for Hannah because, you know, there’s onboarding, KYC, advice given, invoice raised, and sometimes it’s a 24 hour turnaround because that’s the nature of these things, settlement agreements, redundancies, et cetera. And then we have property, and property is, you know, in every sense in terms of either auctions, sales purchases, transfer of equity, and remotes.
It’s been a building block situation where we’ve started off with the basic offering and then we’ve gone into the auction market. Obviously with the auction market then you go, hang on a minute, huge burden of source of funds function. So then we’ve had to make sure that back of house function is suffice. Response times, deadlines, how do you manage that? well, we’re very pleased to have adopted.
And the case management system, ActionStep, who allow us to utilise diaries, timelines and traffic light everything. And that’s really me and I always say I’m probably the most boring person in the business by far because everybody else gets to talk to people and tell them that they’ve just bought the house of their dreams, congratulations, you’ve just exchanged, tell people that they’ve won a settlement all these wonderful bits of news and I’m the one in the background, you know, looking at PII, managing the complaint inbox.
Kate Burt: But to me that’s the exciting stuff, Natalie. You don’t remember who you’re talking to. That’s the that’s the lifeblood. No PII, no lights on. As I think that’s the Simon McCrum quote from his book. No.
Natalie Foster: I think so. Yeah, I know, I know. It is. I think so. It’s the messy, sticky stuff, isn’t it? And Strangly as well, we’re talking about Complaints Inbox. People would say it’s probably your least favourite job. It’s the most important job because that there, right there, listed down is feedback of everything that you could do a little bit better. It’s there in black and white. Is there a degree of unreasonableness? But yeah.
Kate Burt: It’s the cheapest market the cheapest market research you could ever get.
Just on complaints as well, I always see complaints as like always, always see complaints as a blessing because that complainant is taking the time to tell you something you need to know. They’re not always right, but you need you know, you need to look at it. The worst situation is when they just leave and they never tell you why. So always be whenever you receive a complaint in anyone listening.
Natalie Foster: Yeah.
Kate Burt: Always say thank you for your complaint. Thank you for whether it’s out loud or internally, but always show gratitude that you’ve had a complaint because it allows you to either fix the problem or raise your boundaries that you don’t get that kind of client again. Do you know what I mean? Like they’re not always right.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, adapt. Yeah, adapt. what you know on the topic of that, you know, I’m fearlessly protective of the staff. And when I say protective, mean, I’m protective over the negativity that can come forward when they are doing their best because they are working with the tools that we have provided. So they have no choice but to work in the way that they’re working. We dictate the way that they’re working to a degree.
So any of that complaint about process, for example, that’s a complaint about a decision I’ve made, I’ve created. So that’s my problem, not their problem. And so I do take them on more so, and so I should, because if I’ve made that decision better or sooner or quicker or swifter, that person wouldn’t be listening to that. And I also have a big thing about reasonableness. I think reasonableness, we have.
Kate Burt: Yes. Yes. A reasonable standard of service, yeah.
Natalie Foster: Favourite word in this industry, reasonableness. There are so many unreasonable people that we have to deal with and there are an array of reasons for that. People usually come to law to ask for services in a distressed capacity or in a capacity that’s super defensive because they’re trying to prevent something happening in the future. So guards are up, heckles are up already.
Kate Burt: Mm.
Natalie Foster: Or if the moving house are extremely emotive because it’s a big deal, because it’s bloody expensive, because they’re having to pack up the life in boxes, because they’re in a chain, because they don’t understand it. So our client services team is the biggest team we have. It’s where the most resource and the most money goes, and it’s bigger than the legal team, because actually, if you get that bit right, there’s only a small window of the transaction that lawyers need to be working on, the majority of the process is onboarding, welcoming, hand-holding, explaining, supporting.
Kate Burt: There’s so many like there’s so many like anecdotes going off in my head when we’re talking about complaints. So when you when we’re talking about when you said about I think use these I think you use this phrase, but I might be paraphrasing, but you’ve got to support your people with when you when a complaint comes through and you’ve got to have their back. And I’m I’m remembering an example where I was head of risk for a law firm and I was in charge of dealing with complaints.
And a complaint came in from a Client who had been frog physically frog marched off the premises by one of the directors and they wanted CCTV footage, they were going mad about the way being treated, all the rest of it. So I did my investigation and found out that actually that client had was always rude, always rude to the the the junior staff at the front and front of house, would make them cry, they would de were very distressed.
Natalie Foster: Okay.
Kate Burt: I when I did that complaint response, it was a very detailed complaint response. I said to him, I gave the reasons, I said, you may not know this, but the way you interact with the team has this effect. And then that has culminated in you asking to, you know, you being removed from the premises. And I actually held the line. I apologize that the the thing had not worked out well or not broken down, but held the line and supported the the team on that.
Natalie Foster: Yeah.
Kate Burt: And his response that came back, he said, I’m so sorry, I didn’t know I was I was seen in that way. I’m really sorry. And dropped the complaint, didn’t ask for the you know, didn’t pursue the to get the C C T V footage. but it’s just about communication.
Natalie Foster: Wow.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, no absolutely yeah it is and you know credit to that client who does sound quite horrific if I’m honest and but credit to them for listening to any sort of feedback because you know that wouldn’t be and I wouldn’t assume that that person would have been open to that sort of feedback but and then of course as an employer you go into your duty of care well what’s the most important?
Is it my duty to the welfare of my team? Is it the duty of caring welfare to the clients in terms of the code of conduct? And at times, you know, there’s a judgment to be made because what’s, you know, and that’s where being objective and standing back, you know, it’s always important. And I think that can only come from, we talk about working on the business, not in the business. And I’m a big fan of all of that. And I think it’s great. But I’m also a big fan of,
Every now and again, just go back to the beginning. Every now and again, get on the phones and sit next to your team and answer a call. Some welcome calls. Some complaints out of the inbox. Explain to a client who’s got an option deadline in 14 days why the multitude of documents he has forwarded does not satisfy a source of funds. You have that dialogue with someone who’s…
Kate Burt: Yeah.
Natalie Foster: A business person who believes that they know more than you and is talking to you like you’re something off the bottom of their shoe, try and justify that position to get to that result for that client so that you don’t get sued, so that you’re compliant. It’s just a minefield.
But we love it and we’re very good at it and the team are very good at it. But I do think as well, whilst yes, working on the business, not in the business, absolutely, and I do need to adopt that which we’ve spoken about already before we went live. Absolutely, but equally working in the business now and again does you absolutely no harm. And if it’s not only just to remind you of what your guys are dealing with every day, because we don’t have a bad life. can, we go to wonderful networking events with wonderful people and we’re stimulated and we have nice food and we have, and yes we all work hard, but every now and again it’s really good to be humble, get your bum back on that seat, get your headset on and remember what it’s like in the trenches because it just keeps your feet on the ground.
Kate Burt: Yes. The way I do this in my role, because I’m I’m very fortunate enough to have a you know a credible team who I d I don’t if I went missing for six months, the business is just fine. and I don’t have retainer clients now. But what I do do to stay in the trenches to a degree, if I pick up a inquiry, which is because I do get email messages directly into my LinkedIn DMs, that sort of thing.
If I pick if I am there and I pick it up and I give the proposal for a urgent SRA rapid response, I will not give that to my team. I will take because it’s very, very quick turnaround, my team are already stretched. I and I quite like it when the stakes are high, to be honest. If I am that that point, and in fact, I had this conversation on Friday with a new inquiry, I said, if if you do want to, I’ll send you the proposal, if you do want to go ahead.
It will be me doing it because I work it’s such short time frames. I think tomorrow is the deadline to get things to the SRA. I will take that on myself. So I’ll do all all the you know, I’ll update policies, I’ll do the whole, you know, just the whole piece, but that keeps me in the game.
Natalie Foster: I think tomorrow’s the deadline, but I’m just doing a podcast, but I’ve got something else.
Kate Burt: I think tomorrow is the day. Listen, and this isn’t this isn’t how to do work, but this is how I do work when there’s a deadline. If that deadline’s tomorrow, I haven’t had the confirmed instructions actually, and they might still come in today. But if that if I have promised that deadline and he’s got to be in tomorrow, I will work through the night to get that done. I will get up or I’ll make sure I’ve got had enough sleep to function the next day, but I will be up and I will I will work hard. I have always been like that.
Natalie Foster: You’ve always been like that though. You’ve always been like that. I’ve got no qualms in saying we’ve been a client of yours and we have instructed high risk on two, three occasions in respect of some reactive, some proactive. And there’s never been a moment where we didn’t feel like we were the only client of high risk at that time.
Kate Burt: And when I take on and I’m I’m thinking of those things, those ones, it the outcome for me, it it may as well have been my deadline. It may as well have been my, you know, I feel it and I know my team feel the same. We feel it on a personal level that we gotta get this right. And at that point, it’s a team. We’re in a team together to get this over the line, not well, we’re you know, we’re arm’s length consultant, that’s what you need to do. Crack on, let us know how it goes.
Natalie Foster: I saw, yeah, I did see your recent live with Tom on the recent SRA changes around the COLP and COFA role not being, well, one of the items of the recent release being non-equity partners. I guess, you know, again, it sounds like I’m interviewing you now, but I’m interested to hear what you think is on it.
Kate Burt: Yes, well, watch the podcast.
Natalie Foster: That is, I mean, yeah, let’s do another one. But in terms of high risk and your positioning, that there is for me as a business owner of an SME firm, we’re not huge. This is something that is going to directly affect me, my firm, our firm, the board.
Kate Burt: Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Foster: From an expenditure point of view. We talked about trust and about who you partner with. Now, for me, never mind your equity partner, your marriage is with your COLP, your marriage is with your COPFA. Now, I’m COFA for my firm, Hannah is COLP, she’s the solicitor. We work jointly and liaise with each other on items. It’s not you do that and you do that. Everything’s transparent. I’ve always wanted it that way for very obvious reasons.
The magic one solution for us is can we get a COLP on retainer? of course, first, well I know what the answer was two years ago because I remember asking you.
Kate Burt: Right. Do you want the answer?
Kate Burt: Well, so up until this sort of bombshell from the SRA and this is because we are we are often asked, can you be the cult? Can you be the cult? And we try and price ourselves out of winning that work because it’s a nightmare. Basically, you know, if you’re taking on the responsibility, we all know what the responsibility is of a cult. We can do it. I’m a solicitor, we have solicitors in the team.
We’d have to arrange it in such a way to satisfy the SRA, but there’s always ways you can do this as long as you can show that that role is properly covered. So in theory, yes, you can outsource that cult in if it’s in such a way before everyone goes screaming, you can’t outsource it, you can do it in you do it in a certain way. You can. But how I would position it, and we’re just talking on the fly here, Natalie, because I haven’t prepared anything. And this question isn’t planted, let’s say.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, yeah, no, I pinned you down really, but yeah.
Kate Burt:Yes, technically we could be, but it will be very expensive. If it’s me, it’s one of my solicitors, it’s going to be very, very expensive. You know, you could probably go and get a full-time someone. that’ll be better. What I would say though, not to say we definitely wouldn’t, but it’d be a lot of money what I would prefer for you to do and I know with this is all hypothetical Natalie I know you’re not asking this question for the purposes of the audience for the purpose of the audience what i would say is let’s find someone who’s willing to be the cult who isn’t now sort of they’re barred from it because of these new proposals find someone with a cult who you think has potential and is willing to do it that might be the first hurdle that you fall down on because might no one might want to do it find them we…
Natalie Foster: Yeah, this is a scenario. Yeah.
Kate Burt: HiveRisk will support them. They are not on their own, use as a sounding board, using users are confidant, use us to upskill, ask us the hard questions. And even if you’ve got because we do do this with other with other clients. Yeah. So if say say your new cult doesn’t want to approach you, Natalie, because they think they’re going to get in trouble about something, we’ll mentor them through.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, of course, yeah.
Natalie Foster: Because I’ve been naughty. Again, the COLP is an independent role. Hypothetically speaking, you know, that’s it.
Kate Burt: Yes. Yeah. Or not you’ve been not, but the processes are such that it’s or whatever it is, you know. And then your so your junior cult, who’s less expensive than my expensive COLP off a shelf version, is completely supported by a very experienced team. and and could have in fact I’m something that I branded many years ago before Hive Risk was something called COLP Friend.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kate Burt: And they it’s almost like your little COLP buddy. So you could have like a one on one. So that would be my solution without having thought about it, because what I don’t want to do, and I know my colleagues are the same who who don’t like to self-fear, I don’t want to go, no, this crazy from the SRA. Hey, did you know we got a package solution just for that? I want to sit in there, this is rubbish, let it not happen. But if it does, we can work out a plan.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Am I excited? I get really excited about these sorts of things. Honestly, I’m surprised I don’t send my partner to sleep. In fact, I do quite often. He’ll ask me how my day was and he’s asleep by the time I finish. It’s a murky, strange world that we’re working, isn’t it? But it’s necessary. Somebody’s got to it.
Kate Burt: I won’t get excited, Natalie, when I talk. I want to ask you a question, Natalie, about you as an earlier adopter were one of the faces seen at the lawyer’s retreat in Ibiza earlier this in May. Why did you decide to go to the Lawyer’s Retreat? Given it’s time out of the business, you’re already very busy. What why did you go and how was it? And what do you say to anyone else that’s looking on going, is that something for me?
Natalie Foster: No! But, it’s a really good question. Obviously, I had made inquiries the previous year and I didn’t justify taking the time out of the business. And then I realized this year I was even busier and I wanted to go even more. Why did I want to go? First and foremost, was, I would say, good 25, 30 % of people that were going, already knew. And I had a great respect for and knew their story and thought, well, if they endorse it and they’re taking time, and I know they’re as busy as me, if not more so, then we absolutely need to see what this is about.
And then to see the venue, was obviously stunning, that was not really a big sell, you know? But when I got there, I didn’t know what to expect, no expectations at all. The quality of the conversations and the dis-armingness of it all was wonderful. So it was very disarming. And what I mean by that is sometimes when you go into a room full of lawyers, your default position is projecting strength. Project confidence, we’re advocates, you know, this is what we sell, this is what we do, we want to instil confidence because we may or may not get business from this. That’s not why I went, I didn’t have any expectations about accumulating a business.
Strangely enough though, I’m doing things with two people there, but they’ve helping me, exactly, Liam being one of them. But what I found was that it just dialled the pace down of my life, just turned the dial down. Just slowed it all down. It was wonderful not to have to be in charge. You know, that’s the marvellous thing about having Mrs. Pappin kicking around is that you’re never in charge. You’re not in charge because there’s somebody else there who’s more alpha, who’s sorting everyone out, and it was wonderful. Just do as you’re told, put a cap on, put your factor on, you’re all right. It was great. But it was wonderful because…
Kate Burt: I’m just thinking just stand back. Haha.
Natalie Foster: You just literally sat back and absorbed it. The quality of the people that were there who spoke, I loved Ryan’s, I think Ryan’s probably my favourite because it was not about law, it wasn’t even about businesses, was about being a person. Being a person and what that man had to overcome is phenomenal. And then it gives you a little bit of a, well if they’ve overcome that with that going on, why am I stressing about this, that and the other? So there was perspective.
You know, there was real perspective. It was lovely to share that experience as well with other people who were in a similar position to myself. know, Sarah Dodd, Tree Lorde, and Mystery, and of Illegal. These are all people that, they’re all doing what I’m doing in a different place with different people, but it’s the same. They’ve got a baby that they’re trying to protect and grow and make viable and continue to grow is viability and not get sued and not get shut down and you know that’s ultimately that’s what we do every day isn’t it it’s not that we try and do stuff it’s that we try and not do stuff that’s pretty much you try not get sued try not get shut down yeah no joking aside I found it really great and you know the individuals that are in that group that we shared time with there was a true bonding thing there and it’s you know sounds all very airy fairy but there was a lot of vulnerability shown, know, two or three days in, your guard’s down, you’re starting to talk about challenges, you open up about things.
You know, one of the lawyers, I won’t name who because it’s not my story to tell, but one of the lawyers who was there shared that he’d been incredibly poorly with leukaemia as a teenager and nearly died and recovered and then got this huge zest of ambition to just be the best at whatever it was he was going to do. that was, I think that it floored me because to see that individual in a setting such as an awards do, such as a seminar, you wouldn’t ever have pictured that person being vulnerable. So I felt very honoured that that was shared, very humbling, you know, and it’s just about stripping back all the noise and just being people. It is a retreat. That’s what it is, stripping it all back.
Kate Burt: I love there’s a few people that have shared that it’s sort of reignited their energy for and love for their business that can be very lonely sometimes, but actually hearing some of the ambition and challenges from others, it’s just like, I’ve found my I’ve got my mojo back and I’m gonna fight for this business and I’m gonna enjoy it.
Natalie Foster: Yeah. And I’m looking forward to next year, know, hopefully I can get on.
Kate Burt: Well you gotta go on the wait list, Natalie. Hello at the lawyersretreat.com is the the email address for the wait list. I’m teasing, of course, as alumni, you get first refusal. but I’d love to hear about you. I know, in fact, when we first spoke, Natalie, I’m sure you will remember back in 2021, the reason you spoke, you reached out to me. We were first connections on LinkedIn. I think I was talking about cryptocurrency at the time. You were in that.
Natalie Foster: Sorry, yeah.
Kate Burt: So it was it was actually technology that brought the conversation to begin with. I’d love to hear your take, and I know we’ve only got a few minutes left, but I’d love to hear your take on technology, what’s happening in the space, what you’re particularly doing in terms of the community work you’re doing there. Feel free to self promote.
Natalie Foster: Thank you. Yeah, no help. I mean, really, I have a consultancy called Legally Found Consultancy and it’s basically, it’s a shop window for any law firm leaders who want to speak to someone who runs a practice, who owns a firm, who has the sleepless nights that a law firm owner has, just to ask for their opinions on what works best for them. So it’s not a sales pitch about anything.
It’s not particularly going into, you know, how fabulous this particular thing is or this particular thing. All I end up doing is sharing with people in my own free time what my journey was in, say, selecting a case management system or selecting the AI tool that we have recently.
Kate Burt: Well, amazing.
Natalie Foster: And then there’s obviously this very huge argument that we’re losing control, that we’re no longer in control as lawyers. And I absolutely refute that. And I think what is more important than using AI is how and where you are using AI. Because it doesn’t work for everything. Absolutely not. I’m not a fan of chatbots. I think they’re horrific.
Whenever I’m a consumer and I get met with an AI or a chatbot, for me it switches me off immediately. You said there about when you get an inquiry in. So I think there’s a place for it, there’s definitely a place not for it as well. In terms of the crypto, we didn’t explore that directly, but we partnered with an amazing firm in Manchester who supported a lot of people that got scammed. And it was a fantastic success rate of them getting their monies back.
We recognise when we can do things well, we recognise when someone else can do it better and we’d rather partner with somebody who can do it brilliantly well, which is why we’ve shrunk our offerings down to what they are because what we do, we do deep and we do well and we will grow with the additional areas of law if we meet the right person with the right chemistry and we’ve got the right time to invest in that.
Kate Burt: You know me, Natalie, I’m a massive fan of partnerships and collaboration to to propel you and leveraging those partnerships to become something much more than you could ever have been and and for the benefit of all really. So Well, yes.
Natalie Foster: You’re the queen at that, you are, you’re the one, you’re the one, you’re like, erm, what’s it, out of the Matrix, Neo, you’re like the Neo of partnerships. That made Kirsty Trinity.
Kate Burt: Yes, I’m Neo. That’s my new nickname from now on. But yeah, but I I love I love anything anything collaborative and and there’s a real there’s a magic that happens when you collaborate with the right people and whether that’s for one project or bigger, you know, a a a more long term thing, that’s what I live for. I live for that collaboration.
Natalie Foster: Yeah, I think more recently the final thing really is we’re in the north, you’re obviously Preston, Manchester area, that’s your domain. I’m on the East. You need a little yellow van with Preston, New York, Paris on it. But you are international, absolutely.
Kate Burt: Yes. Although I’m international, if you’ve seen my recent LinkedIn post, I’m based in Preston, but I’m international. Yeah. You might look it up.
Natalie Foster: No, it’s fine. So obviously I’m on the East Coast, you’re on the opposite side of the country, but I do feel incredibly passionate about the North, like the North of England and the legal sector here, the legal circuit here. And it’s not to I’ve got great friends in London area in the South that are doing phenomenal things, but we’re all, we’re doing the same here. Like there is no delay. We are not behind the curve. We are absolutely there at the forefront of the curve.
And I think to try to get the more rural, sparse, independent firms aware of what they can achieve without having to be in the South is something I feel really passionate about. Raising their awareness that you don’t need to have a degree in IT. You don’t need to attend every legal tech conference going to be able to access amazing tools that are available.
Kate Burt: Very very, very wise. I’m like, you come up with the story this morning, I’m like, get on LinkedIn live and tell us every all no, I’m I’m teasing, I’m teasing, I wouldn’t want you to do that. But just while we’re talking about opportunities in the north, we’ve got the great big legal off site which at HiveRisk HQ in Wrea Green near Lytham, which it co founded with with our friend and colleague Robert Hanna. You’re coming to that, aren’t you, Natalie?
So for those firms in the north who think, you know, we can’t get to London for these events, we’ve got something pretty cool happening here in the north, but all the southerners are coming. They’re coming internationally. So we’re putting something up north, but it it isn’t just for northerners. So there’s lots of people coming. But if you are a northern firm or you’re based in the north, then it’s very accessible for you to come to. So if you look on Eventbrite for GBLO twenty twenty six, you can get tickets very reasonably priced.
But if cost is a problem, talk to us because we’d hate for cost to be a reason that you don’t come. But Natalie, we’ve gone over time. And you know who I’m supposed to be meeting? Nat Natalie, not Natalie, you’re Natalie, supposed to be meeting Kirsty Papin four minutes ago to discuss Lawyers Retreat year three. So she’ll I’m sure she’ll understand she’s probably watching this going, You’re on this, you’re supposed to be on with me. but thank you.
Natalie: Thanks a lot!
Kate Burt: Yeah, well I’ll tell you what, product placement. For those on the podcast, I’ve just put my Lawyer’s Retreat hat on. But thank you so much, Nasty. You’ve been absolutely awesome as I knew you would be. And I look forward to listening to this on the podcast. Right. Bye-bye, bye-bye.